4180 or is it 4160 OE holley?

[DAN 85 GT]

A while ago I posted a message regarding Holley OE model numbers. Any way someone told me 4180 was the original carb for a 85GT,and other sources tell me its a 4160 , Anyone Know this one ? THX.

[Red85GT]

Dan 85 GT, the OE Holley Carbuertor is a 4180C. The 4160 is not OE.. In 1983 you have a 4180A,in 1984 you have the 4180B and in 1985 you have the 4180C..In 85 the carb that is on your car is a lil different than the other 2 previous years, for 1985 Holley did a little modifiing to the 4180C to make it a lil different.. so if you ever need to rebuild your 4180C the best place for you to get your rebuild kit is at your local ford dealer, you will need a Motorcraft-Holley kit
I'll post the carb model numbers for the 4180C afterwhile, i will need to dig mine out, its not on my car anymore and i have it in storeage..I now have an Edlebrock 1406 performer on mine..
Joe

[Mick]

Holley modified a 4160 model to include emissions provisions and called it a 4180 model. The '83-'85 carburetor is a 4180-C model.

------------------
1983 Mustang GT (http://www.mustanggt.org/photo/83tuttle.htm) 306/T-5(project in progress)
1994 Ranger Splash (http://www.geocities.com/mt83rd/index.html?986572015220) 4.0L/A4LD(daily driver)

[Red85GT]

Here's the numbers off my 4180-C Holley ( E5ZE-9510-CA )

List-50265

1575

Mine dosen't have the origanl tags they have been removed by a previous owner i guess..
And thanks Mick, I read that one time befor about the 4160 and forgot about that..
Joe

[This message has been edited by Red85GT (edited 07-19-2001).]

[Mick]

According to The Official Ford Mustang 5.0 1979-1993 Technical Reference & Performance Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0837602106/19821993mustangg), the Motorcraft 4180-C carburetor("Mfd. by Holley for Motorcraft") is part of the Holley 1850 series. The 4180's body section is the same as the 4160 therefore it's flow rating is 600 cfm, although it is sometimes listed at 585 cfm.

Below is information from two 4180-C carburetors I have. The first group of characters in each set is stamped on the front air horn. The second set of characters in each set is stamped on an aluminum tag(first is blue, second is silver) that is attached to the secondary vacuum diaphragm housing. The last four characters in each set is a date code(Year, Month, Day).

First carburetor(my original):

E3ZE-9510-BGB
LIST 50117-1
0893

Motorcraft
E3ZE BGB
A 3C30

base is cast with a 'shift stamp' with the number "83" in the center
-----------------
Second carburetor:

E3ZE-9510-AUA
LIST 50093
2022

Motorcraft
E3ZE AUA
A 2G21

base is cast with a 'shift stamp' with the number "82" in the center

Originally posted by Red85GT:
In 1983 you have a 4180A, in 1984 you have the 4180B and in 1985 you have the 4180C.

Where did you get that information from?

------------------
1983 Mustang GT (http://www.mustanggt.org/photo/83tuttle.htm) 306/T-5(project in progress)
1994 Ranger Splash (http://www.geocities.com/mt83rd/index.html?986572015220) 4.0L/A4LD(daily driver)

[This message has been edited by Mick (edited 07-19-2001).]

[DAN 85 GT]

Which brings me to the next question . Is the OE carb on my car " OE JUNK" or is it just what my car needs?

[Mick]

The factory carburetor can be "tuned" to overcome the factory metering and calibrations and driveability problems that are emissions-oriented. The 4180-C can also be converted from 4160-type(secondary metering PLATE with fixed jet orifice) to 4150-type(secondary metering BLOCK with removeable jets). Send a mailing address to my e-mail account for info via snail-mail.

------------------
1983 Mustang GT (http://www.mustanggt.org/photo/83tuttle.htm) 306/T-5(project in progress)
1994 Ranger Splash (http://www.geocities.com/mt83rd/index.html?986572015220) 4.0L/A4LD(daily driver)

[Red85GT]

I wouldn't call your 4180-C "OE JUNK".. Just like Mick said they do have there factory bugs that can be worked out.. Like i said I have the Edlebrock Peformer 1406 on mine and I really don't like it, since i put it on my car i have had problems with it in the low RPM range, wanting to stumble and surge, and hard to start after driving.. I plan on sending my old 4180-C to Pony Carburetors for a rebuild so i can have all the factory defects removed, and then reinstall it back on my car..

P.S. I put the rest on the carb information in my previous post, sorry it took so long
Joe

[Mick]

I just checked Pony Carburetors (http://www.ponycarburetors.com) and the cost of their "standard" 4180 restoration (http://www.ponycarburetors.com/restore.htm#holley4180) has decreased quite a bit.

------------------
1983 Mustang GT (http://www.mustanggt.org/photo/83tuttle.htm) 306/T-5(project in progress)
1994 Ranger Splash (http://www.geocities.com/mt83rd/index.html?986572015220) 4.0L/A4LD(daily driver)

[Ken85GT]

I'm putting my 4180C back on too after trying out a "universal" Holley 600 cfm. I can't seem to get it to idle right and it really bugs me that some of the vacuum lines and the vapor tubes are left disconnected. Also, the solenoid and WOT switch can't be mounted to this carb. I ordered a rebuild kit for the 4180 from Carparts.com. It will be the second rebuild. I had much success with the first rebuild 7 years ago using this same Borg Warner rebuild kit. I hope it works this time too or it's going to Pony Carbs!!

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

I'm re-visiting this 1+year-old thread in the unlikely event someone else may need the same elementary :rolleyes: education as I re: carbs.
I searched al the threads, and was getting more confused :confused: rather than illumined :D .

Compared to the carb numbers posted above, my carb seems different. On the air horn is stamped:
E5ZE 9510 GA
List 50265
1505

On the tag it reads:
A5ZE GA
A5E29

My questions:
Are these legitimate numbers for an 85? My engine does have some as-yet unknown internal mods, so I'm wondering if the carb was changed to match.

According to my Haynes & Chiltons, the filter can be in-line or in a fitting on the carb. I'm having a hard time identifying what's what. Can anyone shed some light?
There's also a screw on the top rear of the carb that appears to have a nut or fitting under it. That appears to be leaking a bit. Can anyone tell me what the function is?

Finally, I can tear the carb apart and re-build it (new gaskets, etc., obviously), but I'd like to understand what I'm looking at, too. :help:

Thanks for your patience w/ a long post! :eek:
:angel:

[Goodson]

Jerry,

The carb numbers seem right. There should be a nut on the front too just like in the rear. Those adjust the float height. The filter should be located behind the large nut on the inlet to the carb. you will have to remove the hard line and then remove the large nut holding the filter in the carb.

I am still in the basics of learning about Holley carbs. I have worked on rochester 2bbl carbs and done fine. there are a couple of books on tuning and rebuilding Holley's that would really benefit your thirst for knowledge.

Foxchassis has rebuilt a stock carb before and can go into more detail than me. I am more of a fuelie boy with a laptop for my tuning. :angel:

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

Thanks Goodson:
So your 85 gets you around, but you play with your 88, huh?

There is,indeed, another screw in the front, but it's not leaking. The rear is leaking 'only a little'- but it shouldn't at all, that's why I wanted to know what it is. I didn't want to make a little thing into a big thing ;) .
That's also why I wanted to know if my carb was legit- if not I wanted to replace it rather than fix it.
Another thing is, the vacuum pump on the rear is not connected. The line is there, but has a screw in it with some atv sealing it in. Is this a problem (Mickey Mouse?)?
Thanks for the heads up re: the filter. Is it possible to have the one in the body of the carb and an in-line one, too?
Anyone else want to chime in?
Thanks!!!
:angel:

[FoxChassis]

Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
Compared to the carb numbers posted above, my carb seems different. On the air horn is stamped:

E5ZE 9510 GA
List 50265
1505

On the tag it reads:
A5ZE GA
A5E29

My questions:
Are these legitimate numbers for an 85? My engine does have some as-yet unknown internal mods, so I'm wondering if the carb was changed to match.Looks like an original carburetor to me...

E5ZE 9510 GA is a Service Part Number (http://www.mustanggt.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000276) (E5Z = 1985 Mustang, 9510 = carburetor)

A5ZE GA is the same Service Part Number (http://www.mustanggt.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000276) Prefix and Suffix as on the airhorn (A5ZE is probably a mis-stamp, it should read E5ZE)

5E29 is a Date Code (http://www.mustanggt.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000277) (May 29, 1985)

Goodson covered the rest of it.

I'd be happy to help you out with any rebuilding questions you have over in the Maintenance, Troubleshooting and Diagnosis forum.

[Goodson]

Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
Thanks Goodson:
So your 85 gets you around, but you play with your 88, huh?

Another thing is, the vacuum pump on the rear is not connected. The line is there, but has a screw in it with some atv sealing it in. Is this a problem (Mickey Mouse?)?
Thanks for the heads up re: the filter. Is it possible to have the one in the body of the carb and an in-line one, too?
Anyone else want to chime in?
Thanks!!!
:angel: Yeah, I am trying to gather the parts to do a full t-top conversion on my 88. I just picked up the 85 to drive everyday. I know who has owned the car since 1990. It just rolled over 196,000 miles.

About your carb. I just replaced the carb on my car with a 600cfm 4150 model I purchased from Advance Auto parts new for $258.88. It is a great replacement as the original rebuilt carb was almost 450.00 :eek: :eek: So I bought the replacement for two reasons. One.. the price. Two.. it has idle mixture screws. On the stock carb the idle mixture screws are set from the factory and sealed. So you cannot change the settings. Basically the 4150 is more tunable than the factory carb.

And, yes you can have more than one filter. I do on my car. one in-line and one in the carb.

[Ken85GT]

Well, you can get to the 4180's idle mixture screws after you remove those pesky hardened plugs in the throttle plate. I got mine out during the rebuild so that I could replace the O-rings on the mixture screws. Now I've been able to adjust them for a nice smooth idle.

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

Sincere thanks to each of you! And I will be posting in the Maintenance, Troubleshooting and Diagnosis forum-- as soon as I figure out what I need to do! :confused:
:angel:

[Capri GT]

Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
Sincere thanks to each of you! And I will be posting in the Maintenance, Troubleshooting and Diagnosis forum-- as soon as I figure out what I need to do! :confused:
:angel: Jerry ditch that holley for SEFI

[Goodson]

Originally posted by Capri GT:
Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
Sincere thanks to each of you! And I will be posting in the Maintenance, Troubleshooting and Diagnosis forum-- as soon as I figure out what I need to do! :confused:
:angel: Jerry ditch that holley for SEFI</font>I guarantee that my next car will have such amenities. If I am correct, that is in the visible horizon. :devilgrn:

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

Originally posted by Goodson:
Originally posted by Capri GT:
Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
Sincere thanks to each of you! And I will be posting in the Maintenance, Troubleshooting and Diagnosis forum-- as soon as I figure out what I need to do! :confused:
:angel: Jerry ditch that holley for SEFI</font>I guarantee that my next car will have such amenities. If I am correct, that is in the visible horizon. :devilgrn: </font>This is getting "quote"-long, but:
WHY??? I thought the carb was rated at a higher HP? Seems to me all that computer & injection stuff is just something else to break! :confused:
:angel:

[FoxChassis]

Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
Originally posted by Capri GT:
Jerry, ditch that Holley for SEFI.WHY??? I thought the carb was rated at a higher HP?</font>In '85, the carburetor was rated at 10 HP more but 10 ft-lb torque less than the first year of SEFI on the 5.0L V8 ('86). You can thank the restrictive '86 cylinder heads with their shrouded valves for less HP but better fuel metering and fuel suspension of the SEFI system for the higher torque. And the '85 carbureted engines had less HP and torque than the '87-up SEFI'd engines which had better cylinder heads than '86.

Fuel-injection is better. Period.

[Capri GT]

Goodson, I'd like to hear your take on the carb vs. SEFI comparison since you presently own on of each. Anyone else who has both I'd be happy to hear your opinions as well

[Goodson]

Jerry, to answer your question briefly. Tuning my man, tuning and reliability. That is why I want to go with SEFI.

with the TwEECer program I can monitor air flow, left and right bank HEGO sensors, injector load, engine rpm, timing, and engine temp. All on one screen. I also can save 4 different settings on the chip which enable me to set one for daily use, another for race driving at 160*, and at 180*, and also at 190*. In each program I can adjust timing, and injector load with the twist of a switch. so basically I can change jets, float settings, and reset total timing accordingly to each temperature setting in the motor. As the motor gets hotter it tends to ping at total timing advance. so to get more power I can adjust timing and injector pulse width to accomodate those conditions. Also it has better cold starts than any carburetor and gets 19-24 mpg on average with performance mods.

Computers are the way of the future with cars. Heck many new cars have a LAN inside with the hub lying under the dash talking to all of the components in the car. Suspension, engine, stereo, and many other components.

Carbs are great, don't get me wrong. And I love my 85 for what it is. But, I love the fact that I can program the car the way I want it and dyno it to see my results with the SEFI on each setting. I would need a couple of carbs setup to do that on the 85.

Mick is correct that the 85 had more HP than the 86. But that was due to the POS heads on the 86. the SEFI has longer runners for each cylinder and creates more torque one advantage on the 86. The heads really helped the 87 motor tons over the 86. That is where the 5.0 took off in 87. Many guys were buying stripped coupes and running low 13's with them. Heck with some weight savings, gears, small induction/exhaust mods and a good driver you could see low low 13's. Not counting nitrous. The 87-93's put Ford on the map. Great cold starting conditions, and reliability is what helped the SEFI take off.

I cannot wait to get my 88 setup so I can tune it and drive it everyday. I want to be able to drive it to the track with my A/C blowing and run low 12's. Then drive home.

[ 04-30-2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Goodson ]

[roller4v]

I own both and I don't think one really has a clear advantage over the other.

The EFI definately has better maners over all, but the carb is cheaper to run and maintain.

I don't paricularly like the stock 4180C however and have a Kit in the mail to overhaul my 1850 4160 soon. I can't get the 4180C to idle consistantly to save my life. I give up.

I would wager if the 85 motor was given the benefit of Stock dual exhaust it would be pretty close in ratings to even the 87+ motors.

Steve

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

So, after I buy all the stuff to convert to SEFI, then I 'get' to go buy a $1K laptop???so I can tune it?
Hmmm, "Yeah, Honey, I really need a new computer!" Then I duck!!!
I can only take you guys' word that it's better, but I can't justify the $$$.
:angel:

[Capri GT]

The laptop is really a luxury, and converting can be done fairly cheap these days since the parts are pretty plentiful.

[Goodson]

That is the drawback. Coughing up the dough for "tuning" it. I was lucky to pick up a decent sony vaio laptop for $100 and reformat it to windows 2000. But, that is only if you want to go as far as I do with tuning. I was stating what I really get into in the SEFI cars. It intrigues me. You don't need a laptop or any special program for SEFI. To troubleshoot all you need is a jumper wire, volt/ohm meter, and a timing light. The same things you would use on a carbed car. Maybe not the same way, but never the less, to troubleshoot problems.

The argument goes either way depending on the variables. I could argue bigtime about maintaining a fuelie vs. maintaining a carb in favor of the fuelie. But there is no need.

Jerry, in your case. I would just rebuild what you have. Or look into a really good stock replacement 4150 or 4160 carb. You have to change more than the intake and wiring on your car. Gas tank, fuel pump, then wiring for the gauges...etc. etc.. You have a really nice mostly original 85. those are hard to find. I have all the parts in my garage right now, (minus fuel pump and gas tank) to change the 85 over to FI. but I won't because it is an 85. In my eyes good or bad, carbed cars are fun. I just want a 99 or newer mustang to drive, that is why I said I wanted fuel injection.

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

Originally posted by roller4v:
...the carb is cheaper to run and maintain.

...to overhaul my 1850 4160 soon.

SteveSteve, I guess the affordability is my biggest thing, too.
Also, I don't understand the "1850" reference. Could you explain that?
:angel:

[FoxChassis]

Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
I don't understand the "1850" reference. Could you explain that?Read the fifth post in this topic. ;)

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

Capri & Goodson:
1st, I hope you don't get offended by my feeble attempts at humor. Sometimes I go a bit over board.
2nd, I appreciate you taking the time to deal with this for me. It's been a long time since I was so serious under the hood, and never witha real muscle car.
Basically, I want to learn as much as I can so I can keep this car for life. For a lot of reasons.
I have no intentions of "going fuelie", I just want the best performing and cleanest-looking carb I can manage. I guess I'm working toward a "WOW" factor when I open the hood (and when I get to the track! :naughty: )
Bottom line: Thanks again to all who are helping me get to my goal! :thumbsup:
:angel:

[Capri GT]

I don't offend nearly that easily. :devilgrn:

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

Originally posted by FoxChassis:
Originally posted by Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b:
I don't understand the "1850" reference. Could you explain that?Read the fifth post in this topic. ;) </font>Mick: Thanks,I re-read that a few minutes after I posted my :confused: post redface.gif redface.gif
Justs so I get it straight, is that akin to the similarities/differences among Fox chassis ;) Mustangs?
:angel:

[ 05-01-2003, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b ]

[Goodson]

Originally posted by Capri GT:
I don't offend nearly that easily. :devilgrn: no worries here either. I would just think your a little wacky that's all. :crazee:

[roller4v]

These 1850 is the basic univeral vacume secondary Holley carb. It is of the 4160 variety which has a single metering block with a plate for the secondaries and side hung floats. See the below link.

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/FMS/FMSC/0-1850C.html

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

roller4v:
Thank you! That's pretty much the understanding I had.
BTW: I was this close to owning one of those Torino's back in 1979! $1000!
(Un)fortunately, we discovered the frame was broken!
Best of luck w/ your project.
:angel:

[Jerry: BLACK 85 GT h/b]

roller4v:
Thank you for that link!!! :thumbsup: That's exactly the kind of "carb 101" education I need! Very informative.
:angel: